Comments on Big Leather Couch: Where Are We Going?

Are you kidding me? Does anyone remember what par...

2007-09-04T22:37:00.000-05:00

Are you kidding me? Does anyone remember what parents thought of competition durign the 60's? Guys, nothing new here. Am I the only one who remembers how the "flower children" felt about pressure, winning, and getting ahead? How can we suggest that our kids are less prepared to enter the "real world" than we were. Guys with long hair and jewlery who smoked way too much pot grew up to be bankers, lawyers, and imagine this...bloggers. If we could do it, so can they!

Society expects a lot from these kids. Most of these 'coddled kids' have working mothers who don't have the time or the energy to be nearly as involved as most of our moms were. They have far more demanding schedules than we ever had.
You want examples of how much harder it is for kids today...take a look at the admission policies of any top 10 colleges and tell me what you really think!

TOPCHAMPS COMMENT VIA EMAIL:Hello, Education here ...

2007-09-02T05:06:56.023-05:00

TOPCHAMPS COMMENT VIA EMAIL:

Hello,

Education here is ok I think. We haven't taken this 'everyone's a winner' thing quite as far. I do think that we should be encouraging children to excel though... .and if they don't excel in sports to be trying to find something the are good at. I don't think this is usually done through the school system though so it does rely on parents.

Here sport, art and music are not mainstream subjects and very much take a backseat in secondary school education, so underachievement in any one of these fields is not such a big deal. They are offered as a subject at GCSE or A-Level which would directly affect your Uni application but they do not have the same weight as a mainstream subject eg. Maths.

For example: I took a double Music A-level. This meant that I would get lots of points for music TWICE (practical music and theoretical music). This is a big cheat... but the universities realised and would only count the theoretical part as a condition of entry. Not that it really mattered for music college which is audition-based entry anyway.

The government here has a policy that all children should to go on to University. This has been said to have lead to devaluement of degrees. So far it seems as though the kids who didn't really do so well academically end up at university getting a low degree grade.

(I think the point was to try to emphasise that you can do a degree no matter your background.)

Now the government has decided to emphasise 'vocational training'. So essentially they don't want to go back on their suggestions that further education is for everyone... so they will make further education courses in things like plumbing and building which previously would have been learnt on the job through apprenticeships etc.

ALSO: (this one's my favourite) they brought in an initiative to pay kids to carry on at school beyond 16 (so they could go on to further education).... but a recent survey found that the majority of kids they were paying would have stayed on anyway!

Generally though I think that school is somewhere that kids SHOULD be protected from the real world. I don't think that means that races or sports where someone will lose are bad, and do believe in rewarding achievement. I have several pupils though for whom home is not so good, and they deserve to have a safe protected atmosphere at school. They will have plenty of time to learn about 'real life' as adults and I hope that school can be somewhere they enjoy as far as possible.

aagh - can't get comments to save... I'll e-mail y...

2007-09-02T03:33:00.000-05:00

aagh - can't get comments to save... I'll e-mail you if I can.

Love a rant - this is great!!

Ugh...one more thing...I really don't mind that th...

2007-09-01T16:26:00.000-05:00

Ugh...one more thing...I really don't mind that they got rid of dodgeball at all. Being as I was always the littlest one in class (somewhat a bit ironic now), that was my least favorite activity. But the others are fine.

Ok...briefly, I hope. Mid-life Isis (aka Bad-Ass ...

2007-08-31T20:16:00.000-05:00

Ok...briefly, I hope. Mid-life Isis (aka Bad-Ass Sis) visiting from Peg's place. I didn't listen to the audio yet. But I am the parent of echo boomers, and I find NCLB to be a complete and total failure. That said, I offer these thoughts:

Trophys for participation are not awards, they are souvenirs.

There will always be somebody better than you, and somebody worse than you. Either work harder, or work on something else. (think that serenity prayer may come in handy for that?)

Self-esteem is just that: SELF-esteem. The definition seems to have changed to mean something closer to Stroked-Ego

Dodgeball was never my favorite. I was usually the new kid and got picked near the end. I never had the ball fired at my head and the only thing that was ever bruised was my ego. I learned to get the hell out of the way.

Teaching to test renders tests useless. NCLB is really more of a duty roster. Get enough students to fill in the right cirles, you get the bucks. Kind of reminds me of lab rats that learn to push the right colored button to get a piece of food.

Parents need to take responsibility for their children's behavior. NO EXCUSES...even when it sucks. That's why parenting is so f-ing hard.

Thanks for letting me jump on the couch!

Not only are kids not learning real world skills i...

2007-08-31T19:53:00.000-05:00

Not only are kids not learning real world skills in school, they're not even learning what they need to know to succeed in college! The university here has to hold workshops and teach non-credit courses in Math and English, so that the students (fresh from high school, by the way) can re-learn what they were suppose to learn in high school. There is something seriously wrong with the education system when the students graduate without knowing the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic! Shameful.

My son was asked the other day to quit score so ma...

2007-08-31T15:00:00.000-05:00

My son was asked the other day to quit score so many points while playing basketball..I only wish he had the size of Wilt Chamberlain when he was told that. Gimme a break. Sorry to take so long to get with ya Bond. Cheers!!

Curmudgeon sparked a memory... Also in 4th grade, ...

2007-08-31T10:36:54.511-05:00

Curmudgeon sparked a memory... Also in 4th grade, Catholic School... our punishment for doing something wrong?
A 3-4 digit number was given. You had to multiply by 2, that answer by 3, then that answer by 4...up to 12
THEN you needed to divide the final answer by 12, that answer by 11, etc, done to 2
which should bring you to the initial number given...
Showing all work...
I remember that one night after about 4 hours of trying to get it correctly hearing the F word from my mother for what felt like the first time ever, as in "If you get in trouble again and have to do another of these Fing problems...you problem is going to be worse here at home"
Go on folks... no calculator...
try 7698
Give it to your 4th grader tonight...

No time to stir the pot as thoroughly as I'd like ...

2007-08-31T10:25:00.000-05:00

No time to stir the pot as thoroughly as I'd like but, quickly:

I agree kids today are coddled and the 'everybody gets a trophy' stuff is way overdone. Such a trophy has no value.

Mr. Plaisted asks "what is so wrong with promoting self-esteem and promoting tolerance?"

I don't know how tolerance got in there. Nothing's wrong with promoting tolerance.

But if "promoting self-esteem" means puppy-praising kids for nothing, I'm against it. If "promoting self-esteem" means helping kids find something that they can actually do well and find a measure of success thereby -- that's different, isn't it? But that means it's OK to cut kids from the basketball team -- or play dodgeball -- or give grades in math.

My kids have all attended private schools through high school and I can't claim familiarity with NCLB. My wife is a teacher in a Catholic grammar school -- and we have discipline problems there, too. And helicopter parents. (Maybe more so than in other places because, they reason, they're paying for success so you better darn well come across with the grades for my Junior....)

But I'll say this: Standards are lower now than in the '60's. It is indeed harder to get into the best colleges but only because people have realized that a degree from a prestige institution puts you in an entirely different income bracket than a graduate of State U. or the local commuter college.

But -- just one example -- when I was in fourth grade my teacher gave us exponents as punishment -- calculate 27 to the 8th power -- stuff like that -- and show your work -- and you'd better be right. Or you'd do a different problem.

And this was before calculators.

None of my five children saw an exponent before the sixth grade.

All have been allowed to use calculators for math.

I fully expect my grandchildren will be allowed to 'Wiki' during history tests. It's about the same thing, isn't it?

all that work and the Yanks are still 5 games back...

2007-08-31T09:56:00.000-05:00

all that work and the Yanks are still 5 games back with a month to go.

Now onto the meat of your post, I think I will do a post on a philadelphia magazine article that came out this month calling Main Line parents the worst in the world.

as for needing travel teams for college, at least in soccer, I can probably guess why that is. Its because of Title IX. Soccer is a cheap sport to play in college, you need uniforms and a ball. So, almost all colleges have it. Travel teams get you noticed.
But sheesh, NCLB has to be a joke, because it is too broad a standard.

Kids need to learn about failure and competition b...

2007-08-30T21:39:00.000-05:00

Kids need to learn about failure and competition but they don't need the kind of daily bullying I put up with...and public schools do a rotten job of education.

I home-school... I still don't know if it's a good idea, but I've been a teacher and I've been a student and I know that what's going on in public school isn't good. I was told by a principle that I couldn't give 80% of my science class an F even if they refused to do the work. What kind of message is that?

I hear the whole "aren't you worried about socialization," argument constantly and I wonder since when is the job of school "socialization"? I thought we were worried about education.

School has become its own little culture. You don't learn about the real world there. You don't spend a real career working with people exclusively in your own age group and get promotions just because you sat in your chair for a year.

If somebody harasses you constantly in the real world you have legal recourse. As a teacher I was told to ignore the kids when they called me a Bitch. I'll teach my own.

P.S. The BoSox are wise to not waste themselves s...

2007-08-30T19:45:00.000-05:00

P.S. The BoSox are wise to not waste themselves so close to the post season. i bet they would even prefer to see the Yanks instead of the Mariners come October. (you don't honestly think Manny hurt his back? Just resting him up like they did Shilling a month ago... tired shoulder, indeed.)

Have fun.

Is it called serendipity? Just having this conver...

2007-08-30T19:05:00.000-05:00

Is it called serendipity? Just having this conversation the other night (but to be honest, I have no children myself) ...

It takes discipline to teach discipline, strength to teach strength, and courage to teach courage... and right now the system doesn't have any of these traits; it doesn't have the backbone to teach anything valuable, so.. they end up making rules and canceling anything and everything that would require the system to have a backbone.

It is true that during dodge-ball some bad things will happen, that is why an adult should be present, and when that bad thing happens the adult must be an adult and make decisions that might not be easy or fair... thus, the need for a backbone. But, since no one wants that responsibility,.. cancel it all together.

And, NCLB is just another, in a long line of laws, designed to grant authority without responsibility.

Being single, I like the storyline of the book The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. Maybe a bit extreme, it is science fiction after all, but I like the principle.

And, finally, a question. Is it me or were teachers older when we were younger? I can think of only two teachers I had my entire life that were under the age of forty... now, it seems that it is hard to find a teacher over thirty. Just asking...

Now, onto the coddling, every kid is a winner bull...

2007-08-30T18:45:00.000-05:00

Now, onto the coddling, every kid is a winner bullshit.
No, sorry, not every kid is a winner, and it's high time they learned that.
in the real world, not everyone is paid the same, not everyone holds the same title at their place of employment, but because some do-gooder parents said it's not fair my son gets picked last for dodgeball, competitive sports were stopped.
Life is competition.
They need to bring back dodgeball, they need to reward the students who do well, and push the kids who are failing, harder.
I'm sure most of us here who are discussing this, grew up in a time when during gym class, we played dodgeball, and floor hockey, and other sports where a team won and a team lost, and oh my gosh! None of us died!
We survived and we learned that life isn't fair. You won't always get hired for that job, and you won't always have the same pay and same life as everyone else.
You have to work for what you want, and by the schools making everyone equal, they are doing our kids a huge disservice.
Parents need to parent. They need to raise their kids, not leave it up to the schools. The schools need to stay out of my living room and focus on teaching.
It's a pretty sad day when Castro was being discussed on the news, and both my high school age students asked me "Mom, who is Castro?"

Education standards for our kids have gone down drastically in the years since the Reagan administration.
With each new president who comes along, touting some new form of education reform, the kids are losing less and less learning time in subjects like geography, (I don't think they really teach this one anymore) science, math, and language arts.
The way our kids speak and write, is a testament to there not being enough emphasis on the basics.
Our schools are so focused on passing the standardized tests so that they can receive some of that no child left behind money, they forget to actually teach.

I haven't read all the comments yet and I haven't ...

2007-08-30T18:44:00.000-05:00

I haven't read all the comments yet and I haven't even listened. I will add more after I do those two things, but I had something to say quickly.

I am teaching ninth graders for the first time this semester. The first week of school, I was giving them the rules and instructions. I informed them that if they did not turn their work in on time that I would NOT accept it and they would receive a ZERO.
I was informed by my entire ninth grade class that I couldn't give a Zero. When I inquired why not, they said it was a rule at the middle school. Apparently at the middle school, you get five points for turning in a blank sheet of paper with your name on it.
I quickly told them that they were no longer in the middle school and if they didn't believe that I could give zeros just turn in nothing and watch me.

I was AMAZED and thoroughly discouraged that these kids were coddled so much that they can't receive zeros for doing nothing.

They also think that any time they do some type of work they need a grade. We were taking notes today and they thought they should get a onehundred just for taking notes. Again, I let them know what a ridiculous idea that was. The point of taking notes was for them to have them to study for the quiz and test. And if they DIDN'T take the notes that their grade would suffer and they would be punished for not following direction.

They want EVERYTHING handed to them.

I'll weigh in more later.

Oh, and I COMPLETELY agree with MiMi about NCLB. It's HORRID.

I can't believe someone asked me to comment on the...

2007-08-30T18:34:00.000-05:00

I can't believe someone asked me to comment on the no child left behind bullshit at.
Are y'all nuts?

I live in Florida, and Sarasota County to be exact. I think that part is important to know for reasons I hope I can fit in this box.

We are one of the wealthiest communities in Florida. We have an abundance of 3 digit million dollar homes, celebs have homes here, wealthy people retire here, this community has so much money, they think of craptastic ways to spend it.

Our students are being taught to pass the FCAT, the Fla version of the NCLB act standardized testing. They study for this for the first full half of the year. Then in February, after xmas break, they take the test. After kids have just had two weeks off to be lazy and play with new toys.
The schools in our country who do the best, get HUGE sums of money from the govt for passing this test.
What have our schools, I mean, the county, done with this money?
Well they did rebuild a one of the elementary schools which was only 10 years old and not in need of repair.
They decided to rebuild one of the high schools parking lots too.
They have been repaving that lot for 2 years so far, at a cost of $3million dollars, so far.
They are going to rebuild the high school, but have said it's going to take 5 years and over $10 million to do. The school is super old, has asbestos in the walls.
Now, I'm all for rebuilding a school because it's unhealthy, but in the meantime, our kids are trapped in portables, 30 students per pod, with small windows and 1 box ac window unit per pod.

What has our county done with the other millions of dollars it received?
They bought statues for downtown costing over $1 million a piece.
They built a new bus depot for over $5 million dollars. They rebuilt the entire downtown area, new sidewalks, new everything, and spent over $12 million dollars doing it.

The school year just started and teachers sent home their required supply lists.
On those lists were, pens, pencils, markers, dry erase markers, 5 usb flash drives, 1 $50 headset microphones for language class, 5 reams of printing paper, a CASE of kleenex, a CASE of bounty paper towels, 10 pkgs of red pens, 10 pkgs of black pens, 10 pkgs of blue pens, 3 pkgs of yellow highlighters, and my favorite, a spindle of blank DVD discs.

Were these all for my students use?
No.
They are for the teachers because after the county got done rebuilding the downtown the bus depot, an elementary school, and a parking lots, and BUYING over 100 portable classrooms, they do not have any money left for classroom supplies for the teachers, so they are making parents buy them.

I have more to say, adding another comment.
Man, you opened a can of worms.

Damm what a battle you two are having I have to ch...

2007-08-30T18:32:00.000-05:00

Damm what a battle you two are having I have to check out the show...But give'em HELL Bond!!!

Very interesting...Here's my two cents:My father i...

2007-08-30T17:09:00.000-05:00

Very interesting...

Here's my two cents:

My father is a 7th grade science teacher. Unfortunately, most of his day isn't teaching, it's disciplining kids and dealing with parents. Pressure is put on the teachers and on the school system by the parents to raise the kids and the teachers and the school system try to put some of the responsibility back on the parents. It's an endless game of tug o' war.

Unfortunately, it's the kids who are caught in the middle.

Mimi Lenox hit the nail on the head. NCLB was a good idea on paper...but it's just not working.

What can we do? My opinion is that parents need to step up to the bat more...these are our kids and we have a right to choose how we want to raise them. Too many people throw up their hands and say that there's nothing they can do...those are usually the people who don't get involved in PTO and school functions. It's the same with voting - don't complain if you don't vote and don't complain if you're not willing to make your voice heard.

As for "coddling", Bucky (sorry Bond) says it best:

Not every kid made the team when they tried
We got disappointed but that was alright
We turned out alright

Disappointment is going to happen...competition is healthy. It tends to bring out the best in kids and adults. Goodness knows, I've had my share of them...but you're going to have to deal with it sooner or later, and if you can find a good way to deal with it when you are young, you'll do much better dealing with it as an adult.

Guess what...life isn't fair. I sure didn't want or expect to be a single mother. But I've dealt with it and raised a pretty good kid. But ultimately it's not going to matter what school the kids go to or if they got a trophy for picking their nose...they are going to reach the real world sooner or later and that's when they find out what they are made of.

I think I gave you my three cents...I'll mail you a check for $0.01.

My link to your post…and a challenge

2007-08-30T16:51:00.000-05:00

My link to your post…and a challenge

Teaching to the test has become so commonplace tha...

2007-08-30T16:36:00.000-05:00

Teaching to the test has become so commonplace that the kids now know how to circumvent the process and pass the blasted test anyway. Of course, then the state changes the test and it's back to square one.
The test is God.

By the time schools figure out exactly what is needed to help students succeed on the Almighty test - because, like it or not, that's the reality - it's too late to prepare them and you might as well throw out your own plans and creative ideas. Nobody wants to ask the teachers themselves or trust them to (gasp!)teach. When caring educators actually develop relationships with their students and discover their strengths and weaknesses, learning can occur. But that won't happen when the first thing a student says is "Can I sue you?" when faced with perceived unfairness. Another subject for another day.

The children are stressed about the test (12-year-olds hyperventilating and crying), the parents are stressed about the test (35-year-olds hyperventilating and crying) and teachers....you get the picture.

The message we are sending this generation is Teach me how to push this button to win the prize which will prove I'm a genius and worthy of passing my grade. It really doesn't matter if they know their multiplication tables, how to construct a sentence or find America on the map.

What the general public does not understand is how wide the discrepancy can be between the material found on the test and the curriculum the state mandates you teach. It's a joke. Every "new thing" that comes along in education is usually tested in the classroom on an average of two years and then discarded.

No Child Left Behind should be left behind.

(stepping daintily off the soapbox)

Wow...so much to digest, and so much to think abou...

2007-08-30T16:18:00.000-05:00

Wow...so much to digest, and so much to think about.

I have so many thoughts running thru my head, but I think you are dead-on in your assessment.

Good thing the couch was so comfy, or my butt would be sore from sitting and reading for so long!

Interesting conversation happening here and on my ...

2007-08-30T16:04:00.000-05:00

Interesting conversation happening here and on my comments page as well. When I have time later today, I may get into some of it, but Bond and I fleshed much of this out this week. I'm still not sure what I am being accused of not answering. There appear to be plenty of anecdotes, but also little indication that the education establishment is driving any of this supposed coddling. And I still don't know what is so wrong with promoting self-esteem and promoting tolerance. What is the alternative, acting like a jerk in the classroom all day? We have all had teachers like that and we know how much they accomplished.

Anyway...Peace

Mike Plaisted
Milwaukee, WI

Me again.My oldest…who has borne the brunt of my p...

2007-08-30T15:14:00.000-05:00

Me again.

My oldest…who has borne the brunt of my parenting…made an interesting point… (after her exasperated “oh geez Mommy is this another e-phn blog thing?”)

She pointed out that parents who demand all things be equal…who want to eliminate competition and squelch recognition are the ones whose children do not make the honor roll, hit the homerun, sing the solo, or are awarded the blue ribbon. I wonder how many of these kids could have experienced achievement if given the support of their parents?

At the end of day, when we talk about education, we are not only guiding OUR children (teenagers and young adults) but the next group of people who will run our nation.

For the researchers out there…a report was just released on 14 August 2007 titled, “Comparative Indicators of Education in the United States and Other G-8 Countries: 2006.” This report describes how the education system in the United States compares with education systems in the other G-8 countries…Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom.

It is a long document (90-some pages) complete with charts, graphs and statistics.

You can read the whole thing at:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007006.pdf

This site is the US Department of Education, Institute for Educational Sciences. It contains a tremendous amount of information. This specific report contains twenty indicators are organized in five sections: (1) population and school enrollment; (2) academic performance; (3) context for learning; (4) expenditure for education; and (5) education returns: educational attainment and income. In addition the appendix details the Educational Systems of each of the G-8 countries.

I’ll refrain from quoting…if you have any reason to be personally interested…you will read it on your own.

(another good one is the Digest of Education Statistics…which is available in .pdf for the years 1995 – 2006)

I'll listen to the conversation tonight after I pu...

2007-08-30T14:32:00.000-05:00

I'll listen to the conversation tonight after I put the kiddos to bed.

In the meantime,IMHO, NCLB is a dismal failure. It's about as successful as our latest surge in Iraq--highly touted by W but lacking the real-world success.

Are todays kids molly-coddled? Holy crap, are they ever. I get the hairy eyeball in Walmart from other mommies, when I say, "No you can't have that..." followed by, "Because I SAID so" or "Life isn't fair" or some other retort to whining demands for crappy trinkets.

I think trophies for everyone is a crock of shit--a tee shirt at the beginning of the season, OK, but you played so you get another freakin' dust-catching tchotcke? Cuz you played? Bah...

Eradicating tag as a playground game, removing the competition from games, worrying about Johnny's poor little ego being bruised? Not in my family. My kids get a LOT of love, consistency and boundaries. Self-esteem grows from confidence, and from structure, rules, and clearly delineated expectations. Not from some mamby-pamby, overblown, carefully worded explanation for every blessed thing that an adult decides on behalf of a child.

I am the parent of an "echo boomer" and I can atte...

2007-08-30T13:37:00.000-05:00

I am the parent of an "echo boomer" and I can attest to the fact that yes, these kids are being bubble wrapped. By their parents.

Heck our schools barely have time to teach let alone play Sparkle Fairy to the kids ego.

I think that a lot of the show up and be rewarded in sports etc, comes from having to little time to coach and schools bowing down to the parents who think THEIR child is the second coming and should have rose petals showered in front of them when they walk.

This in turns leads to children with little or no discipline who think they are above consequences. These mini exorcist brats then participate in playground games like such as dodge ball and tag and guess what they do? Act like monsters.

Further increasing the problem is the fact that should the parents of the above child smack that brat on the ass like they deserve, they could be brought up on child abuse charges.

That said, these days it is much much harder to qualify for student loans or gain entry to colleges. In that sense Plaisted does have a point. These kids are stressed.

At some point these kids get older and begin to feel the pressure to be the perfect child that mommy and daddy treated them like. At least those that are not completely narcissistic to the core.

If anyone is guilty of bubble wrapping it is the parents. Of course we live in a society where John Q Public has bubble wrapped themselves from the realities of poverty, racism, and the rampant corruption of our government. Is it any wonder the kids are screwed?